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Post by The Opal Lady on May 20, 2013 8:21:33 GMT 10
Paradoxical Blue : Well said, dear Blue. This is the whole reason I stated this was nothing but a base to build a discussion about the gem to treasure conversion price around, as of course two girl's theories aren't going to be dead on as to what it would be, but a base idea to build off of. I'm not saying that the gem rate should be crazy high, just that it should be decent enough to give whoever has gone and spent money or time on purchasing/saving up for them is going to get a good thing in return. This being said is why I believe it won't be until the majority of people have played through and we've discovered just how easy/difficult it is to earn treasure. That will be what sets the base line in the conversion rate, as well as what the people who purchase the gems feels is fair, and how much the treasure-only players are willing to pay. Give and take, and learning to barter really.
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Post by Paradoxical Blue on May 20, 2013 8:25:13 GMT 10
Yeah. It'll fluctuate. In the beginning, I think it may spike a little low, because people will have hoarded cash to buy gems on day one, and will be completely new to the market. This means people will be less aware of values, and more likely to sell low. Then we'll hit a bit of a dry spell until things even out. After that, there'll probably just be spikes around Christmas, and if the staff ever do sales/specials.
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Post by warpwind on May 20, 2013 16:30:41 GMT 10
I tried to find the evidence to back this up but was unable to do so.
I believe you could also come across gems while digging or scavenging. Plus they were rare random drops in colliseum (as already mentioned) or other minigames.
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Post by Harpy on May 20, 2013 16:46:55 GMT 10
I think it a reasonable price.
I thought you could get Gems very rarely through familiars and scavenging, or am I thinking of treasure?
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Post by The Opal Lady on May 20, 2013 17:06:04 GMT 10
I've still got no true idea what the price will be. My personal opinion is that it'll really be up and down till the first month or so has passed by. ^^ This is just to help try and determine some base line to start with. I have my own personal trading idea for trading gems for hatchlings.
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Post by Harpy on May 20, 2013 17:08:54 GMT 10
I guess, also, people will have different values in the end, but in about the same range.
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Post by Gaia on May 20, 2013 17:45:10 GMT 10
You can also earn gems from your familiars, in so called treasure chests... Those chests can also drop from the colliseum, and I believe you can also dig em up in your daily gathering. So I guess it would be reasonable to say if you are going to be a die-hard player like me; a minimum of 100 gems a month, easily
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Post by jcstitches on May 20, 2013 18:15:13 GMT 10
(Why do I have to sound like a downer?) I think 100 gems per month is a little too optimistic. You can get them from familiar bonding, but it takes more than a month to reach the level where you get the one single chest that has gems and at some point beyond that your familiar eventually maxes out. You can get them from digging, but it would be a once or twice a month thing. You can get them from grinding the coliseum, but I can tell you I played PvC at least 5 hours straight every day for weeks and earned maybe 10-15 because they kept adjusting the drop ratios down.
Gosh, I love how this game has sparked endless debates and conversation about economy from the very start XD First by reducing treasure earned in the fairgrounds from 60k to 25k, which totally set the marketplace values on their rear, and then gems. I think Blue said it best - "you want enough to keep those who cannot pay pacified, and those who can pay, satisfied." I completely understand the need to keep them rare in-game, but it's definitely a point of frustration in some ways. I'd say though that this still doesn't count as pay-to-play. Nothing you can purchase with gems will make the game significantly easier - it's all either aesthetics or minor assists. The scroll that keeps your hatchling young forever is actually counter-productive in some ways and the one that hatches the nest immediately is only sparing you 4 days.
Don't get me wrong, I was one of the loudest voices calling for gems to be made easier to obtain and was politely but firmly told they think they've got a fair balance and that the marketplace will spread it all around eventually. They may very well reconsider as the live game plays out, but I'm not counting on them making it cheap and eliminating the source of the site's income.
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Post by Duchess of the Snow on May 20, 2013 19:37:49 GMT 10
WARNING! RANT HERE! RANT HERE! BEWARE! I kind of agree with what you were told by the admin jcstitches In my opinion, cause I felt I need to weigh in here, it will take about a month for gems to become easier to come by. Let me explain. To start off with there will be people like me and Opal who will go ahead and buy up some gems straight off the bat. This is great for the games economy since this the best way for gems to get into the economy, and I can tell you right now, those of us who buy gems with our own money will probably not want to sell them TO cheaply. I understand that there will not be a lot of treasure circulating at the very beginning for people to buy up gems with said treasure but that still won't influence the trading that much since the gems are expensive. This is just my opinion, as I plan to purchase not only breed change scrolls but also gene scrolls and trading away gems for treasure will not be a high priority of mine. Sure, I will need treasure eventually but to start with I will be much more likely to give my gems back to the site as it were to buy my genes and breeds. ^^" Im sorry if this seems snappy Im just trying to put my opinion out there *hides* So...yeah I do not think there will be much gems for sale to start with, which would make them expensive but then again there will not be much treasure around so yeah does that make sense?
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Post by jcstitches on May 21, 2013 0:47:10 GMT 10
Yes, but this IS a game, wow. It's not a job, sweatshop or otherwise. It's something you're doing for entertainment, so beyond and above all our discussion is the simple fact that the people who made Flight Rising have the right to set their prices at whatever they consider fair. Once again, gem-only things don't help in the actual game so it's not as you will be at a disadvantage in the coliseum or in quests. They didn't have to include ways to get gems in-game at all - many other less interactive and less interesting adoptable games don't. So what is your entertainment worth to you? What would you pay for a video game you'd play once or twice? Money from gems doesn't line the admin's pockets, they go towards server costs and additional future content. It's not snappish, Duchess of the Snow. I guess I was tired when I wrote that and didn't make myself clear. I did originally feel just like the people who are saying the gem prices are unfair, I did speak to the admin. on more than one occasion. I didn't like their answer. I sympathize and feel frustrated too because I'd like cute clothes and fancy genes. BUT. After I had some time to cool off and think about it, I do have to agree. Genes, breeds, and everything else WILL get into the marketplace where they can be traded for treasure or items. They will cost quite a bit in treasure, I'm sure, but ... that's the point of it being rare and valuable. Supply and demand IS what will drive the market... so if you saturate the market, everything loses value. Too much supply and waning demand. Here's an example of what already happened in the smale-scale beta economy. It started out that hatched dragons went for a little less than whatever the breed-change scroll cost plus a little less than whatever genes it had would have cost. So a baby mirror with wing spots and tiger stripes might have been 200,000. In two or so months the market had plenty of gened everything, so those prices ended up cut down to 50,000 or less. Now that level of saturation will be much less likely in an open community but in an open community more money will be flowing in too - So people like Snow and Opal will pour gened things into the market and as they are bred the prices will come to some fair equalibrium on their own. Because let's face it. If a seller gives a price people find unfair, people just won't buy. Then the seller has a choice: sell at a rate the population can afford, keep a dragon they don't want who will eat their stores and take up space, or exalt it for a measly few thousand treasure ( around 1-2,000 for a hatchling and 5,000ish for a level 10 adult). I think it may be an error to directly say "this amount of gems = this amount of treasure." Maybe a better and less contentious way would be to set a standard on how many gems a hatchling or item is worth and disregard the treasure value. An apples and oranges sort of approach.
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Post by jcstitches on May 21, 2013 7:35:38 GMT 10
I won't/can't argue on the breeding point, though being a breeder and playing the marketplace won't be the focus for all players.
Um, I do want to know what you mean by buying skills? Do you mean skills to fight in the coliseum? If you do, I'd point out that all the skills, power stones, etc required to be good in the coliseum actually DROP in the coliseum at a pretty consistent rate. I never had to buy anything to equip my dragons with the best fighting skills and I had 40 dragons, with at least one of every element. I had excess, in fact. They don't even sell half of it in the Marketplace, and what is there is very cheaply priced. So there is no angle for pay-to-win in that area - the only real option is to play the coliseum and you get what you need while you level up naturally.
As for the Marketplace, like I said, not everyone even wants to be a merchant or a breeder. I do. You do. Because it's hella fun and satisfying to bargain and bid your way to wealth. If certain players aren't good at it or they aren't interested, I don't think many will become discouraged. They'll just play in an area they are good with: fairgrounds/coliseum/quests/etc.
But discussion is good. I know the admin listen and if, after the game starts, this proves a serious problem they're readjust it just like they did the fairgrounds. To make it more fair, they changed it from "each game earns this much per day" to "overall you can earn this much per day and then continue to earn, just at a lower rate" so you can choose the game you want/are good at and only play that instead of struggling (and not enjoying) to play every game.
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Post by jcstitches on May 21, 2013 8:52:04 GMT 10
*waves hand* I can't afford gems. I might be able to buy them once a year as a special treat but well... yeah. So I'm not speaking from the privileged position of someone who has excess money to throw at Flight Rising. I'm just establishing this fact. [/b] Not always desired by players. Me, for one. I think the majority of skins made by artists other than the FR team break continuity and game aesthetic. [li]List item 2[/li] Ability stones you don't have (though it sounds like these are common) Common. Yep. Easier to obtian through coliseum play. [li]List item 3[/li] Genes to get your dragons more valuable Point, but it only matters if you want to be a breeder. There is less in the way of breeds to be collected than other adoptable sites (10 vs dozens). Most collection is in items that aren't gem related. [li]List item 4[/li] Convenience items to speed up dragon breeding. No. There is a scroll that will hatch your nest 4 days early, but it doesn't affect breeding cool-down. You'll still have to wait just as long as anyone else. [li]List item 5[/li] More space for more dragons. Point. Though this is almost entirely bought with treasure. [li]List item 6[/li] Food to keep your dragons well fed. You can do it yourself through daily gathering and coliseum drops. I expanded my clan past the intended capacity with daily gathering capped too low because of beta. [li]List item 7[/li] Dragons, even pre-leveled dragons. Point, but will they have the abilities you want and the stats arranged as you would chose? Leveling a dragon to the max level 20 can take as little as a day or two depending on the time you want to burn. [li]List item 8[/li] The list goes on. This is the song that never ends. It just goes on and on, my friends![/ul] Money is definitely the way to come out on top in a collectible game. No argument. But I don't think gems will be that often used in the Auctionhouse/Market for the very reason that most people can't afford them. Treasure will be the main currency and that can be earned in game. For every payer player there will likely be dozens of free players. Those few might have the nicest genes but in the end, if they want to sell they will be forced to do so at a REASONABLE price IN TREASURE. The gem-less masses will be setting what is a reasonable price which they can pay, and sellers with gems would be cutting their own throats (so to speak) to ask for prices most players can't pay. I guess what I'm saying is, those players can charge a fortune in gems or treasure, but if no one can or will pay that... they've got nothing. No profit at all. Even in games where there is no cash-shop, like Dragon Cave, there is rampant extortion from some players who happened to catch something special. That's not the game's fault, that's an unfortunate facet of human nature and will pop up in any game. But the game flows on around them. A list of things that can't be obtained with gems/treasure. That's a bit unfair, the connotation is inherently negative. How about things you can get even if you didn't gems/treasure? 1) Most familiars. 2) Adequate food. 3) All battle stones. 4) Dropped apparel for use or resale. 5) Dropped collectible items (dragon god dolls, chess pieces, etc). 6) Scavanged material that can be traded to NPCs for special items. 7) Most Achievements ( FR's variation of merit badges) and the few that are gem related are so minimal the monthly automatic amount will cover. Not a problem, wow. I'm enjoying the debate! I'm also getting quite a giggle out of a Plague Player ( survival of the fittest) arguing for fairness and protection of weaker players while a Light Player ( uber-moralistic) is saying let the chips fall where they will. Or are you just scared your prey will be scared off before you can fleece them? (kidding, kidding. Also, YES. I made you debate. I regret nothing, since I love it too. Let's debate whatever, okay? I'm up for "why do ducks quack" or anything else you wanna throw my way. Come at me!)
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Frost
Fledgling
I am Iceborn
Posts: 49
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Post by Frost on May 21, 2013 11:55:43 GMT 10
I think Eli's point about speeding up breeding was freeing up the nest four days faster and had nothing to do with the breeding cool downs.
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Post by jcstitches on May 21, 2013 12:34:04 GMT 10
Then that point is true, you will clear the nest faster. But I question just how many hatchlings a player can conceivably feed, house, and sell at the same time. Staggering the hatchings would be more sensible and wouldn't strain the player or the market - since if you have a dozen or so hatchlings for sale then you are technically competing with yourself for buyers. But yes, it will clear a nest faster so I'll give Eliskan that point.
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Post by warpwind on May 21, 2013 13:12:55 GMT 10
I'm really enjoying the discussions this topic has brought up. Even if I'm a little busy to actually contribute right now (at work).
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